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  #31  
Old 09-21-2008, 10:18 PM
freddy freddy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nmcd


I'm also concerned that you think that by autonomy, I mean petty selfishness, just looking out for number one and forget everyone else. The world would be a better place if there were less people like that.

However, if people do not have the ability to make decisions and to bear the responsibility for them - and yes, that means making mistakes sometimes -all that's left is an empty ettiquite with no moral stand point underlying it. It's like political correctness, it trivializes the real reason we are against racism and discrimination - because we believe that all men are created equal and we want to see that same standard we aspire to applied in reality. You can't have a better world without autonomy.
I don't understand what you mean. By autonomy, I mean a making choices free from external constraints. Autonomy could be equal to self determination. Autonomy could also be equal to selfishness. You are free to make decisions based on what you want without regard to anyone or anything else. We would have a better world if people were not free to make decisions based on what they want and disregarding everyone else. However, that's a perfect world. That type of self-regulation cannot be legislated, it must be found internally.

But as Americans, we value our freedom to do whatever we want above most other things. And we don't adequately value self-regulation of that freedom. (ie: She has a right to say whatever she wants. Yeah, but just because she has that right, doesn't mean she SHOULD say whatever she wants.)

I appreciated reading your point of view and thought you expressed it well.
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  #32  
Old 09-22-2008, 12:10 AM
TristaFL TristaFL is offline
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Hmmmm, I don't see autonomy as making "decisions based on what you want without regard to anyone or anything else." I see autonomy as simply the freedom to make your own decisions. Just because I have autonomy doesn't mean that I won't be taking others feelings into consideration, it simply means that others won't be making choices for me.

To go one step further, I believe in my heart of hearts that people who are allowed to take responsiblity for themselves and their decisions and are consequently impacted by those decisions (be them "right" or "wrong") will make the best choices for humanity in general.
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  #33  
Old 09-22-2008, 01:36 AM
SueW SueW is offline
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Default I don't think so

Quote:
Originally Posted by freddy
I think if each side of the issue would work at finding the common ground instead of being afraid and angry and disgusted at the other side, we'd be in a better position.

I think there should be support options presented and made available. Many women do not feel like they have a 'choice'. If they are going to choose abortion, at least they should not feel like it was their only choice, because that's not really a choice at all.

I think women should know what they are doing. They should know about the life they are choosing to end. Especially in a late term abortion, I don't think they should go into the process ignorant of the ramifications of their choice.

I think fathers, especially ones who are married to the mother, should have some voice. I think its grievous that a wife can choose abortion with no input from the father, without at least being required to go to couple's counseling or something first. But, sure, the husband's probably a monster, so she should get to do whatever she wants with her body.

I think each side draws a line in the sand and cannot accept anything short of that line. I think that's harmful for everyone involved including the woman that the pro-choice side of the line is supposedly meant to serve.

I really can't believe that RvW would ever come to an end, and that if it did come to an end, I can't believe that it would make abortion illegal, but more likely put it into the hands of the states.

You say "I think each side draws a line in the sand and cannot accept anything short of that line. I disagree, and I believe that the poll and posts here on this board show that there isn't any bright line. Opinions and beliefs are all over the board, and for many reasons.

I believe that your family photo would never have been taken had abortion been legal, because that mother would not have died from a safe and legal abortion. Make abortion illegal and once again, women will die from illegal abortion. There always will be abortion, because there always has been. And if there was a day before abortion, there was infanticide.

Some men ARE monsters, and they force pregnancy upon women. Most men are not. Most men DO know about their partner's abortion, and in fact, it is often the father who pushes, or even forces, the pregnancy to end.

And I don't think many women belive abortion to be their 'only" choice. That's what choice is all about - to choose to have a baby, or not (preferably that decision comes early in the pregnancy - my bias, and probably developed after seeing so many of my fetuses lost to spontaneous abortion - as miscarriage is so lovingly referred to medically, or ectopic pregnancy (6 of the first and 2 of the second). I also got to watch my children develop from fertilized ova to morula, then get transferred, then so many ultrasounds that I practically had a personal guide to embryology. There is no question that "life" begins at conception. But that life does not always progress to a live baby, naturally or not.

I do belive that each person has a unique view about abortion and that few are diehard No! abortion, or Always! abortion - there is a lot of gray and a lot of interesting discussion which is happening right here.

I appreciate hearing each person's view, and the reasons they developed those views, including of course, your view. But I disagree about the "bright line" because I don't see any line at all.

And I agree that there should be more services for mothers (and fathers) needing help and wanting to parent. But it does seem that the very same people who are militant anti abortion are also those who do not want any funding to go to family services. I hope I'm wrong aboout that, but I know that there isn't a lot available to those parents who need it most.

Thanks for sharing your views - Sue
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  #34  
Old 09-22-2008, 05:35 AM
freetibet freetibet is offline
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Default I don't think so -

Quote:
Originally Posted by SueW
You say "I think each side draws a line in the sand and cannot accept anything short of that line. I disagree, and I believe that the poll and posts here on this board show that there isn't any bright line. Opinions and beliefs are all over the board, and for many reasons.

I believe that your family photo would never have been taken had abortion been legal, because that mother would not have died from a safe and legal abortion. Make abortion illegal and once again, women will die from illegal abortion. There always will be abortion, because there always has been. And if there was a day before abortion, there was infanticide.
There has always been lots of things; theft, murder, patricide to name a few. That doesn't mean we should legalize or condone them because people have always done these things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SueW
Some men ARE monsters, and they force pregnancy upon women. Most men are not. Most men DO know about their partner's abortion, and in fact, it is often the father who pushes, or even forces, the pregnancy to end.
Interesting comment about monsters. How do you know that it is often the father that knows and pushes or forces abortion on a woman?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SueW
And I don't think many women belive abortion to be their 'only" choice. That's what choice is all about - to choose to have a baby, or not (preferably that decision comes early in the pregnancy - my bias, and probably developed after seeing so many of my fetuses lost to spontaneous abortion - as miscarriage is so lovingly referred to medically, or ectopic pregnancy (6 of the first and 2 of the second). I also got to watch my children develop from fertilized ova to morula, then get transferred, then so many ultrasounds that I practically had a personal guide to embryology. There is no question that "life" begins at conception. But that life does not always progress to a live baby, naturally or not.
that's sort of like saying it's okay for me to kill someone since they would have died anyway at some point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SueW
I do belive that each person has a unique view about abortion and that few are diehard No! abortion, or Always! abortion - there is a lot of gray and a lot of interesting discussion which is happening right here.

I appreciate hearing each person's view, and the reasons they developed those views, including of course, your view. But I disagree about the "bright line" because I don't see any line at all.

And I agree that there should be more services for mothers (and fathers) needing help and wanting to parent. But it does seem that the very same people who are militant anti abortion are also those who do not want any funding to go to family services. I hope I'm wrong aboout that, but I know that there isn't a lot available to those parents who need it most.

Thanks for sharing your views - Sue
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  #35  
Old 09-22-2008, 12:34 PM
freddy freddy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SueW
You say "I think each side draws a line in the sand and cannot accept anything short of that line. I disagree, and I believe that the poll and posts here on this board show that there isn't any bright line. Opinions and beliefs are all over the board, and for many reasons.

Most men DO know about their partner's abortion, and in fact, it is often the father who pushes, or even forces, the pregnancy to end.

And I don't think many women belive abortion to be their 'only" choice. That's what choice is all about - to choose to have a baby, or not
The line in the sand people I was referring to are the NOW group and the- can't remember the name of the very vocal religious anti-abortion group. The very vocal people who make the news and get the quotes... they draw lines. They allow for no consensus building.

In one line you say it is often the father who pushes or forces a woman to abort, then in the next you say you don't think many women believe that abortion is their only choice. Anyone who feels forced by the father (or the grandparent) may feel that abortion is their only choice.
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  #36  
Old 09-22-2008, 01:55 PM
SueW SueW is offline
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Default Read carefyully "some" are, "most" are not - more

Quote:
Originally Posted by freetibet
There has always been lots of things; theft, murder, patricide to name a few. That doesn't mean we should legalize or condone them because people have always done these things.



Interesting comment about monsters. How do you know that it is often the father that knows and pushes or forces abortion on a woman?



that's sort of like saying it's okay for me to kill someone since they would have died anyway at some point.
The Un-Choice:
64% involve coercion.1 Pressure can become violent.2 67% not counseled.1 65% suffer trauma.1 Suicide 6 times higher.3
Forced Non-Choice ... “I’ll blow her brains out.”
Intense pressure to abort can come from husbands, parents, doctors, partners, counselors, or close friends and family. They
may threaten or blackmail a woman into abortion. These are not idle threats. Coercion can escalate to violence. Women who
resist abortion have been beaten, tortured and killed. One husband jumped on his wife’s stomach to force an abortion. A
mother forced her daughter at gunpoint to go to the abortion clinic. A woman was forcibly injected by the baby’s father with
an abortifacient drug.2 (Download the 22-page “Forced Abortion in America” Report at www.unchoice.info/resources.htm.)
Unwanted Non-Choice ... Their Choice, Not Hers.
Reasons women give for having abortions:4
• Forced by mother • Father opposed
• Husband or boyfriend persuaded me • No other option given
• Would have been kicked out • Loss of family’s support
• Lack of support from society • Clinic persuaded me
• In 95% of all cases, the male partner played a central role in the decision.5
• 45% of men interviewed at abortion clinics recalled urging abortion, including 37% of married men.6
• In the above study, men justified being the primary decision maker, regarding the abortion.6

• 64% of women who aborted felt pressured by others.1
Coerced Choice ... Taken to the Clinic to Make Sure She Keeps the Appointment
A former abortion clinic security guard testified before the Massachusetts legislature that women were routinely threatened
and abused by the boyfriends or husbands who took them to the clinics to make sure they underwent their scheduled
abortions.7 Many women are also pressured by clinic staff financially rewarded for selling abortions.8
Forced Choice ... Threats Can Escalate to Violence or Murder — the Leading Killer of Pregnant Women
The pressure can escalate. Many pregnant women have been killed by partners trying to prevent the birth, and being
pregnant places women at higher risk of being attacked.9 Murder is the leading cause of death among pregnant women.10
92% of women surveyed list domestic violence and assault as the women’s issue that is of highest concern to them.11
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  #37  
Old 09-22-2008, 02:36 PM
nmcd nmcd is offline
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Default I think autonomy is a really interesting topic

It isn't simply choice but it presupposes rationality - the capasity to be convinced to do the right thing. When we put constrains on people's autonomy we are saying that we don't believe that it's possible for them to be convinced to do the right thing. That it's human nature to act entirely only in ones immediate self interest without any regard for the bigger picture.

Some people think that's just realism and you can point to all sorts of examples of where people have done terrible things. However there are also many examples - usually ignored where people have made altruistic choices.

Which is it? What makes people make the choices they do? Where is the moral compass that guides them?

This is something I haven't thought through entirely but here is my best stab at it.

I think that human nature is mutable - different circumstances tend to lead us to act in different ways. But the real advance of humanity is something quite old that transcends different religions. It is ability to abstract from our own experiences and see strangers as like us, as potential friends and to act accordingly.

Right now, people are less trusted than ever to make the right decisions. The catch is that if people aren't allowed to make their own decisions - if they they choose from a range of "acceptable" choices they never develop that empathy that makes it possible to make good choices. When we do not allow people to make their own decisions we ultimately make things worse. - for them and for everyone else. Ideally choices are not made in a vacuum but if it's all about me except when I'm forced to conform by law why should I pay any attention to any one at all? When we erode autonomy we erode all of society. Not only do we create a situation where people don't have to make moral choices we create a situaton where we have no hold on them - no loyalty, no empathy except a sort of low level tribalism where we only relate to people just like us.

Anyway, I appreciate your reading and the discussion.

Nancy

Last edited by nmcd; 09-22-2008 at 09:59 PM.
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