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Thread: heartsick over Prop 8

  1. #11
    HethD is offline INCIIDer - A Community Creator
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    Quote Originally Posted by jvirginia View Post
    It is because legislating these beliefs means IMPOSING them on people who don't share them.

    You probably don't believe in single parenthood, but would you arrest a woman who has a baby on her own? Take her child away?
    Isn't all legislation imposing beliefs on people who may not share them? Speaking from what I know here in CA, there were many bond propositions that would put CA at a higher deficit. If I voted against them, but they passed, wouldn't the higher deficit still be imposed on me as a CA resident? Another proposition called for a sales tax increase to fund something - if I voted against it and it passed, I'd still have to pay the sales tax.

    This argument could be used for most laws - seatbelts, carseats, helmets, cell phones, term limits, legalizing prostitution or marijuana. Just because it may not affect me directly doesn't mean I shouldn't vote how I believe. That is my right and privilege as an American citizen.

    And, while I don't believe single parenthood is ideal, I think it's a ridiculous stretch to suggest I'd want to arrest a single mother or take her child away.

  2. #12
    Pleaky is offline INCIIDer - A Community Creator
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    Default I understand your viewpoint

    Quote Originally Posted by HethD View Post
    I am tired of hearing how hateful and bigoted and wrong my beliefs are just because they don't mesh with everyone else's. It was put to vote in CA (and FL) and the majority spoke.
    I certainly hope I didn't call anyone bigoted or hateful. But the majority isn't always correct, and hence our very wise framers warned against the tyranny of the majority. Your (or anyone's) beliefs should absolutely inform the way you conduct your life, but why the need to impose them on other people who don't share them? No one is forcing anyone to be gay or to lead a gay lifestyle, so I don't get how this is an issue if you aren't being asked to do that?

    And imagine for a moment how tired gay people are of hearing that they're sinners, predators, bad parents and morally bankrupt, because they are different, because they don't "mesh with everybody else." Nope, I just don't get it.

    Pleaky

  3. #13
    HethD is offline INCIIDer - A Community Creator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pleaky View Post
    I certainly hope I didn't call anyone bigoted or hateful. But the majority isn't always correct, and hence our very wise framers warned against the tyranny of the majority. Your (or anyone's) beliefs should absolutely inform the way you conduct your life, but why the need to impose them on other people who don't share them? No one is forcing anyone to be gay or to lead a gay lifestyle, so I don't get how this is an issue if you aren't being asked to do that?

    And imagine for a moment how tired gay people are of hearing that they're sinners, predators, bad parents and morally bankrupt, because they are different, because they don't "mesh with everybody else." Nope, I just don't get it.

    Pleaky
    It wasn't from you specifically, nor to me specifically, just words thrown out in regards to anyone that would vote against same sex couples. Sorry I didn't make that clear.

    This just dawned on me as I read your response. As a conservative, evangelical-thinking Christian, I view myself and all others as sinners. I believe we're all a work in progress with specific challenges that break us down and ultimately grow us closer to fulfilling our purpose. So, while I think acting on homosexual feelings is a sin, it's no more of a sin than all the things the rest of us do. I've never once labeled same sex partners as predators, bad parents or morally bankrupt, but I do think they're sinners - just like me. I can see how some people who aren't Christians may think calling them sinners is a slam on same sex partners, but in reality it just affirms that they're not perfect people. None of us are.

    I didn't march into a voting booth and take pleasure in swiping my pen in favor of Prop 8. I'm not some fringe extremist who is trying to hurt any segment of society. But a law was put in front of me and I voted my conscience.

  4. #14
    zody is offline INCIIDer - A Community Creator
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    Default I didn't have the words, or heart to even try to describe

    prop 8 to my first grader. We live in such a diverse community. So many kids she knows have two moms or different moms or backgrounds that are very different from ours. Our own family is mixed race. There are so many mixed race families on our block, and in her school. Some through adoption, some through remarriages, it really doesn't matter. It's just nice that she doesn't have to feel weird about it.

    Her (public) school principle is gay and when school started, she announced that she and her partner were married over the summer. She got got a rousing applause. We also have some very religious muslims in our school. One recently had a tragic death in the family -- the support they are getting from our community is so touching.

    How can I explain to such an innocent child that outside in the big world there is so much prejudice and misunderstanding of people she sees as normal, caring, loving and supportive?

    Naturally, she is starting to figuring it out, and I have to fill in the blanks along the way. Last year she started learning about Martin Luther King Jr. and it was really interesting to try and explain how hard he had to fight for the civil rights of non white people.

    DD wasn't born in the U.S.A. so becoming president isn't going to be an option for her. I'm gonna have to tell her about that soon.

    I try to teach her to respect every bodies faith. WHo am I to tell her that they are wrong. As long as people don't expect me to believe what they do, I accept that they have every right to their own culture, beliefs, traditions and identities. There are a lot of good people out there who have very different beliefs and backgrounds.

  5. #15
    sfpierce is offline INCIIDer - A Community Creator
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    Default and those who supported

    the miscegenation laws were just voting their conscience too...

  6. #16
    freddy is offline INCIIDer - A Community Creator
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfpierce View Post
    the miscegenation laws were just voting their conscience too...
    You are correct. They were. What was the alternative? I'm not being sarcastic. Its an interesting question. The law was put before them and many good people had deep beliefs on the issue. Should they have voted against their beliefs? Not been allowed to vote? What was/is the alternative. I guess that's what the supreme court is for.

  7. #17
    HethD is offline INCIIDer - A Community Creator
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    Default I understand that.

    Quote Originally Posted by sfpierce View Post
    the miscegenation laws were just voting their conscience too...
    I'm in an interracial marriage. Well, maybe technically interracial is black/white. I'm married to a man born from a Mexican/American father and a Vietnamese mother.

    I'm just trying to explain my beliefs in an attempt to offer another perspective. But, I can only debate them against a multitude here for so long.

  8. #18
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    Default The thing is ...................

    just as in the election, majority rules. You cant have it both ways in a democracy. Whatever personal beliefs people had that caused them to elect BO also caused them to make this decision. You may shake your head and wonder why, as do I.

    renate

  9. #19
    freddy is offline INCIIDer - A Community Creator
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    Quote Originally Posted by renate View Post
    just as in the election, majority rules. You cant have it both ways in a democracy. Whatever personal beliefs people had that caused them to elect BO also caused them to make this decision. You may shake your head and wonder why, as do I.

    renate
    It was interesting, on the radio they said that 7 out of 10 blacks voted in favor of the ban, and whites were pretty evenly split. They suggested that heavier than usual AA turnout may have swayed the outcome of the prop.

  10. #20
    SueW is offline INCIIDer - A Community Creator
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    Default Heather -- why are we all sinners?

    please I am not trying to diss you, I really don't understand. Do you believe that all people are sinners? Are some sins worse than others? I. really don't understand, perhaps you could explain it? I certainly don't feel like I am a sinner, and I don't see others as sinners. I do believe that some people are inherently evil, but the average person?

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