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Thread: at a loss at what to do....

  1. #1
    angeleena is offline INCIIDer - A Community Creator
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    Default at a loss at what to do....

    Ella's after school teacher has finally had enough. Ella is being written up today for disrespectful and horrible behavior during a class picnic outside. She wanted to go swing and refused to hear that she could swing, but had to wait.

    She screamed and cried and said nasty things during the entire picnic and "rained on everyone's parade" as the teacher put it.

    They asked me not to send her there tomorrow. And, they will see what the management of the after school care wants to do on Monday. The teacher asked me to look for another program for her.

    I asked what kind of program that is at the school, will take her? None.

    They straight up told me that they have been more lenient and allowing of her behaviors, especially the past few weeks but that they can no longer take the disrespect. She calls the teachers names when she does not get her way, and the teacher said she "cries all of the time." She is disrupting the other children and they do not understand why she cries all of the time and is always throwing fits.

    She has never broken or ripped up the other kid's property. She has never hit nor hurt another kid thankfully nor has she physically hurt the teacher. We are VERY THANKFUL for that.

    I cannot blame the teacher....this is what our daily life is like at home, only worse because it is us. dh said his days off are much more stressful than his work days.

    She is a very unhappy little kid with less than zero patience for anything at any time. She is very miserable lately, worse than normal. Occasionally, she will have a few hours of good behavior though. Last night she seemed to have a great time with grandma and grandpa.

    The teacher said Ella seems more miserable in the past two weeks than ever. The only change in the past few weeks has been the high dose of probiotics, and now she poops every day without a laxative. Other than that...nothing different.

    We are so at a loss at what to do with this poor kid.

  2. #2
    danellsar is offline INCIIDer - A Community Creator
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    It sounds like she's depressed.

    Depression in kids is very different from adults, but it does happen. They cry a lot, have a lot of anxiety, have a hard time dealing with things.

    I can't remember if you had her looked at for anxiety or for bipolar, but these are things that a good child psychiatrist can assess.

    It's hard to understand why your school refuses to consider an IEP for her for behavior and emotional control issues. What happens next year when she's in 1st, and the class is a full day, and then it's the teacher she's growling at and not a care worker?

    Sorry I have no answers. We're still dealing with stuff with dd, and she's in high school. :-(
    Ellen

  3. #3
    smf3 is offline INCIIDer - A Community Creator
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    I am so sorry! I do have to say, one thing that popped out at me from your post was the *they have been more lenient and allowing of her behaviours*. I dunno how Ella is, but with Madylin, this is a big no-no. Being lenient of behaviours, for Madylin, is a door to the not-so-nice side (she's behaviourally a pretty good kid tho...I don't deal with a fraction of what you do! ). I actually had them put a note in her IEP for next year that the classroom discipline policy is to be enforced immediately and steadily with Madylin. She is hysterical when she loses a privilege or whatever the consequence is, but she'll only have that discipline issue 2-3 times and that's it. The more she is allowed to *get away with things* (not exactly the term I want but I hope YKWIM!!) the worse her behaviour.

    I hope things work out!! I wish we had some magic words of wisdom for you...I guess I'll pass along some instead!!


    Shawna

  4. #4
    danellsar is offline INCIIDer - A Community Creator
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    Angi- I got the following information from another listserv, but the mom is having a lot of the same problems. Her dd has been dx'd as Aspergers, but is not on an IEP due to the school denying the problems. Here's what another poster suggested she do with regards to her girl's behavior issues:

    "...demand (in writing) that the school do an FBA (functional behavior assessment). This should be done by an OUTSIDE autism expert (NOT the school principal or staff). This would involve multiple observations of the child in her various settings (esp. those where she is having a hard time) as well as interviews with staff and review of all her records (supply your own copies of evaluations to the expert as the school may "accidentally" misplace the outside evals). Then the expert and you and the staff will meet to come up with a BIP (behavior intervention plan) that should specifically outline what the staff will do to prevent behavior challenges and how to deal with them and determine what sets them off. Next thing for you to do is to contact the school district: go up to the director for special education. The request for a FBA should be emailed to that person as well. Also include reasons (specific incidents and dates if possible) why/how the school is not meeting the child's needs (denying FAPE). If there is no movement, it will be time for you to hire an education advocate. Check with your local support group for local guys with good reps. This is sometimes all it takes to set a reluctant school back on its heels: you look more intimidating with a professional on your side! "

    I realize that you do not have an autism diagnosis for Ella, but the advice seemed to be right on the money, and it came from a mom who'd BTDT.


    Ellen

  5. #5
    Reese14 is offline INCIIDer - A Community Creator
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    Default Can they put a 1x1 aide in there with her?

    There has to be a school that can handle her. I know it will take a while, but I'd start pushing for an IEP that has an aide with her the entire time, to help "buffer" the bad stuff and take her out of the classroom when she is being disruptive.

    What about a self-contained class? Our school has a special program for children who are unable to perform in a mainstream classroom. There are many aides and teacher to kid ratio is very high. In our school, the school/teacher decide if the child should be put there, based on their performance and most importantly if they are disruptive to the classroom

    I feel for you, I really really do. I can't even think of what to say to you right now.

  6. #6
    angeleena is offline INCIIDer - A Community Creator
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    i just wrote a huge response and my computer crashed and it is lost. argh.

    I decided that i am angry with ella's after school teacher. Ella did go nuts in class and she even hit the teacher in the back which is never ok of course.

    But, when i heard ella's side of the story i felt differently. Ella said that the teacher made a picnic and right after K class...they went outside to sit near the playground but they were not allowed to go on the playground only to sit still on the blankets for the picnic. WELL, ella needs the swing for sensory issues and she did not take well to sitting there looking at the swing and so she got angry. (ADHD!) It could have been handled but instead the teacher got mad and told ella that she lost the swing for the entire day and could not go on it until tomorrow. argh.

    It seems like an unrealistic expectation for kids who just got out of K class to go on a recess and not be allowed to play first but to sit and look at the playground.

    Ella was really upset. And she said that the teacher was really picking on her which i do believe. This teacher is 70 or so, and not flexible at all. She is actually kind of an odd woman.

    Our extreme need for respite care made us have ccclouded judgment\!!!

    Later in the classroom, the teacher grabbed ella by the hands very tightly and drug her across part of the room...and ella said she slammed her down in the chair.

    Ok, the teacher was pushed over the limit....frustrated...and blew it....which believe me, ella is a challenge and I can understand. HOWEVER, no teacher should ever put a hand on my girl for any reason. And, she could have just sent ella to the principle's office to handle it where they know how to deal with behavior issues.

    And, the teacher told the whole class of kids that "Ella IS KICKED OUT!"

    I do not think the teacher should be discussing this with other kids. It was very humiliating for ella and she is already humiliated daily by her own behavior that she cannot control. the teacher should not have told ALL of the kids that.

    The teacher wa s also acting like the kids were afraid because of ella but when i looked through the window before I knocked on the LOCKED door I saw ella playing fine with a boy there. When they unlocked the door the teacher went over to the boy and started hugging him saying "It;s OK, ella is leaving now..." I had just seen the boy playing fine with ella...he was not upset at that time at all. Ella said the kids are afraid of the teacher.

    I left without saying anything. Ella knew she was in big trouble but instead of getting angry with her, we just talked about it.

    So, later yesterday I got a message from the teacher in a really sweet voice saying that she spoke with her boss and that they do not want to kick ella out but that they want to work with us.
    I do not know if the school psych called them....the doc? or someone pointed out the ADA? or ?

    I called this morning and said "No thanks!" I told them that this teacher is not a good match for Ella and that we do not feel like it is a good situation.

    Now I am stuck dealing with her going to school that is a half hour drive away each way....for 3 hours a day with no after care.
    Right now i m sitting in subway waiting for school to get out.....too far to drive home. but, there are only 5 or 6 weeks left of school and i am not going to subject ella to anymore of that teacher.

    And, the good news is that we went to the open house for ella's old after care that is at a different school...where ella went without incident for 2 years....and they said they would love to have ella back over the summer. They were always veyr good to and with her and they know how to deal with sn kids...the director has 2 sn kids. It is at a different school but our new house is less than a mile away. I guess we had the plan all along for her to go back there which is part of the reason we bought that house.

    Anyway, i laughed as i got the letter i nthe mail yesterday from the school that ella was denied an iep or 504 because she does so well at school. They only include the K time at school..the aftecare just uses the building...a separate entity completely....
    We did ask for a Behavioral analysis and we were ignored. Later we had a formal letter asking for an IEP eval and finally they did something.
    She does do fine with her K teacher actually....she is a young, flexible, understanding woman so they think ella is fine. And, she is only there for a few hours......
    Oh, just wait until fall when she has full days..... i am SURE she will have an IEP then.
    And in the mean time I am lobbying our insurance yet AGAIN to ask for ella to go to a summer school treatment program that does mental health assessment, therapy, and and is like a full treatment short term day program. The doc thinks it would be great for her to be assessed so they could figure out once and for all if it is just adhd...temper reg. disoder, anxiety....or what????????? Mood disorder NOS, etc. Or ??? bipolar or ???

    Our insurance will only cover the crappy child psychs in our town that are either full or nobody wants to see because they SUCK. I have lobbied them, for better care so much that they KNOW MY NAME when icall and they are pretty sick of me. but I do not care. Anyway, they finally approved ella to go to a children's hospital where i believe they have good child psychs...about 120 miles from us...but the waiting list is 6 months. Things have escalated and 6 months sounds like 6 years right now.

    sorry this is soo long......

    angi

  7. #7
    Reese14 is offline INCIIDer - A Community Creator
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    Default Hey Angi

    So much to say, don't know where to begin.

    I can totally and completely understand where you are coming from because Ryan is so similar to Ella, so similar. If Ryan has a teacher that doesn't like him it is all over.

    I understand your desperate need for respite care (we too have 2 hour kindergarten-it is a joke) but I think the best thing is making her feel good about herself and feel successful and try not to subject her to those teachers who clearly don't get her

    I see why the school had the kids go to the blankets, they didn't want them all over the playground, then have to round them up, clean their hands... I understand their point of view and even why they wouldn't make an exception for Ella. But the reality is, they need to learn to redirect her (easier said than done) and keep things positive. Taking away the swing, what she covets most of all on that playground is not the answer.

    Your comment:
    Our extreme need for respite care made us have ccclouded judgment\!!!

    Hit a chord with me. I do the same thing. Things I would never let my older one do I allow my younger one, because I am so darn desperate, after 6.5 years of nonstop hyperactivity/opposition and impulse control to just get a break. I do this a lot too, I make decisions based on the fact that I need a break. But, in the big picture, remember it can backfire. My guy goes to an afterschool program 2 days a week and he doesn't love it but we make it work, because I don't know what I would do otherwise. When they had a few days off, they offered classes (more money) and of course I signed him up because I needed a break. We got there and it wasn't the same teacher, etc and he started to flip out. I told them "thanks anyway" and walked out. Now, I could have forced him to stay and got those two days of sanity, but I knew in the end he would never step foot back in that school if I made him stay and then I'd never see another break again from him until he goes to 1st grade. I tread pretty carefully to keep things positive.

    Your comment - Ok, the teacher was pushed over the limit....frustrated...and blew it....which believe me, ella is a challenge and I can understand. HOWEVER, no teacher should ever put a hand on my girl for any reason. And, she could have just sent ella to the principle's office to handle it where they know how to deal with behavior issues.

    Yes, people get brought to their knees by my guy too. An OT held him down during a session about 1 year ago--we never went back. They can't cope and as adults they get angry (who can blame them?) but they don't handle it well and they personalize it and they take it out on the kids. It's horrible but i am not suprised when you post things like this, because my DS brings people around him to their knees.


    Your comment: And, the teacher told the whole class of kids that "Ella IS KICKED OUT!"
    She is obviously not a professional person. This is bad. And not to mention it just makes kids like Ella and R much, much, much worse.

    Your comment: The teacher wa s also acting like the kids were afraid because of ella but when i looked through the window before I knocked on the LOCKED door I saw ella playing fine with a boy there. When they unlocked the door the teacher went over to the boy and started hugging him saying "It;s OK, ella is leaving now..."

    There are no words Angi. This is disgusting. I can't even comment on this. She should NOT be pitting kids against other kids. If Ella is hurting another child, she needs to be removed from the class. Period. Nothing shoudl be said to the kids about her.

    Your comment:
    I called this morning and said "No thanks!" I told them that this teacher is not a good match for Ella and that we do not feel like it is a good situation.

    I think you are making a wise choice. I know, I so know how hard it is for you, but that environment is not a match for her and will likely make her behavior worse. It's nice they want to work with you, but that all should have happened before it got so out of control.

    If Ella is anything like my guy, she will do anything and everything to irritate this teacher now and "prove" she is bad. With my son,there is NO going back once he has a read that someone doesn't like him, no matter what they do to try to be nice.

    I don't know what else to say, so many things in my mind right now. It sounds like you ar eon the right path and I am glad you got into that appt. Yes, 6 months feels torturous, but you know what, if you didn't make the appt then it would be longer. Heck, around here, the "good docs" don't even have appointments and won't take anymore. And I refuse to lay out 2500 for an eval to be told by my school that they refuse to accept outside evals. I mean, what's the point. I won't go on my usual tangent with that...

    I'm sorry about your week and I do feel your frustration. I hope you have a nice, CALM weekend. Hang in there

  8. #8
    trek is offline INCIIDer - A Community Creator
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    So sorry you and Ella are discovering a MAJOR issue with children with disabilities face AFTER SCHOOL HOURS. Lack of programs willing to accept a child with any behavioral issues. I have not gone down that path pesonally but see it has the NUMBER ONE issue in my county facing working parents. Children often will hold it together in the school setting but have to let it out somewhere and if they have held it together for 7-8 hours already than it must come out.

    I would suggest in writing putting together a very nice letter to the head of your special education department. This will not get Ella into the after school program as it is privately run but you will have written proof that there is still an issue affecting your child due to her disability that makes functioning like her peers more difficult. I would also contact your state's disability organization to see how to proceed.

    Again, you are not alone in this tough situation

  9. #9
    Troy is offline INCIIDer - A Community Creator
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    As I see it, you have two choices:

    1. Go back to something that worked before -- this is obviously appealing, and I think you should seriously consider it.

    2. Take up the director on her offer to work with her. I would do this. I am serious: first, she offered -- and second, as you are finding out, you are almost certainly going to be fighting this battle over and over again. This teacher might have been pushed, but I bet the director has received complaints about her in the past. Her age, alone, makes it likely that she was trained to rely on techniques that are now considered totally unacceptable (e.g., identifying Ella as a bad kid in front of other kids, using physical coercion). The director must realize this and should be willing to apply some pressure to change the experience for all the children.

    Sometimes withdrawing is the only way to go -- when Ella's safety was at issue, this was your only recourse. Where safety is not the issue, then I think you should perhaps see if you can work with them, and by offering to work with you, the after care program has at least given you an opening to tell them what Ella needs.

    Anyway, my dd has different issues from yours, but it still seems like every year, every class presents the same old hurdles. And just from what you said, I agree with Ellen -- it sounds like Ella might be depressed. I firmly believe that in some people, depression starts very early in life. I hope you can find some answers.

  10. #10
    PPeanut is offline INCIIDer - A Community Creator
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    You mentioned probiotics. Makes me wonder about yeast die off? You mostly hear about this in relation to autistic kids, but I have heard of yeast die off causing increased behavior challenges. Maybe that is worth doing a little research on? If so, its possible her behavior will improve again soon.

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