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Thread: Mosque at ground zero?

  1. #101
    twinks is offline INCIIDer - A Community Creator
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    Quote Originally Posted by SharonB View Post
    So, the principle we have in our country - since its founding - having to do with the freedom of our people to practice their own religion is "political correctness"? Since when?

    We aren't trying to pacify anyone. We aren't trying to *not* offend anyone. My problem with the uproar over the muslim community center is that to prohibit it goes against everything this country was founded on. We are supposed to be the example, right? Aren't we supposed to be the "shining city on the hill" that is a beacon to the world?

    If we continue to treat the entire muslim population as though they are all terrorists, we are not living up to our own ideals. I believe in an America that is better than that. No matter what others do to us, we will rise above it. It wasn't the Muslim faith that caused 9/11, and we shouldn't act as though it was. Otherwise, we are no better than the terrorists.
    No one is trying to deny anyone the freedom to practice their religion. No one is telling the muslims they cannot build a mosque. The request is that they acknowledge the sensitivity of the location and build elsewhere - which they refuse to do.

  2. #102
    jordansmom is offline INCIIDer - A Community Creator
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    Quote Originally Posted by twinks View Post
    You are right that it's a sad victory for the terrorists. And you better believe they are manipulating our system to our own detriment. Of course, not the way you mean.

    We have gone so far overboard with political correctness that we are practically bending over backwards as to not offend them. To not offend the very people who danced in the streets in celebration as the twin towers collapsed. The very people who are rioting over 1 pastor mearly threatening to burn their koran - he hasn't even done it yet and they are hysterical. Because burning a book is so much more offensive than murdering over 3000 innocent people! These are not stable people so why are we even trying to pacify them? No one bothers to answer this repeated question.

    This whole argument that we need to show them that we embrace peaceful muslims is a joke because the terrorists don't care if we embrace them or not. We can let them build a mosque in every city in America and they will still hate us and want to kill us.

    Yep, the terrorists won alright.
    Twinks, what do the people who danced in the streets on 9/11 have to do with the Muslims who want to build a community center in NYC? Or any of your other comparisons to this group of Muslims in NYC. Are you really claiming these folks in NYC are unstable soley because they are Muslim?

    It isn't Al Quaeda building a community center.

    Should white Christians not be allowed to build churches in cities where there are blacks because of the actions of the KKK?

  3. #103
    jvirginia is offline INCIIDer - A Community Creator
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    It isn't our decision whether to "let them" build a mosque - that whole phrase gives away an attitude that America belongs to Christians who get to decide how much leeway to give people of other faiths in this country. "They" have a right to build the "mosque" - it is in our constitution, embedded in NY's zoning codes, the community has gone through the planning process, gotten the proper permits, followed due process, and now all of a sudden we are supposed to make an exception because of "sensitivity" based on a lie (the lie being that this is a victory mosque at ground zero).

    We fundamentally disagree on two points:

    1) That the location is really the issue. It isn't at Ground Zero now, you can't even see Ground Zero from there. Even keeping in mind the incredibly difficulty of "moving" such a project in NYC, I don't believe that moving it would allay the concerns of many opponents because what they are really opposed to is Islam in America.

    2) That this doesn't fan the flames of American hatred in the Muslim community. Yes, true committed terrorists have already lost their grip on reality, but whether public opinion around the world (remember there are 1 BILLION Muslims) *is* swayed by whether we live up to our great value or whether we

    One of my closest work colleagues is a Muslim (and an American citizen, a successful entrepreneur who has brought lots of money into the local economy) and I am utterly embarrassed about this whole thing on behalf of my country.

  4. #104
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    One of my closest work colleagues is a Muslim (and an American citizen, a successful entrepreneur who has brought lots of money into the local economy) and I am utterly embarrassed about this whole thing on behalf of my country.[/QUOTE]

    I agree with you 100%. I am sad such hatred exists in this world.

    A mosque in lower manhattan should be as welcomed as a church or a synagogue or any other house of worship. This is America. We are free to make religious choices here, all of us.

    That lunatic pastor in florida is just that... a lunatic. Should we be condemning all Christians now and lump them in his category?

  5. #105
    SharonB is offline INCIIDer - A Community Creator
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    Quote Originally Posted by twinks View Post
    No one is trying to deny anyone the freedom to practice their religion. No one is telling the muslims they cannot build a mosque. The request is that they acknowledge the sensitivity of the location and build elsewhere - which they refuse to do.
    I'm having a hard time seeing any real difference between "suggesting" that they move their community center - and claiming that if they don't do it, they are insensitive - and actually telling them they *can't* do it. Both are essentially infringing on their right to practice their religion in this country.

    Holding the entire Muslim community responsible for what happened on 9/11 is akin to saying all Christians are like the nutty pastor in Florida who was threatening to to burn a pile of Qurans. He is no more representative of the vast majority of Christians than the 9/11 bombers were of the vast majority of Muslims.

  6. #106
    zody is offline INCIIDer - A Community Creator
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    Quote Originally Posted by SharonB View Post
    I'm having a hard time seeing any real difference between "suggesting" that they move their community center - and claiming that if they don't do it, they are insensitive - and actually telling them they *can't* do it. Both are essentially infringing on their right to practice their religion in this country.

    Holding the entire Muslim community responsible for what happened on 9/11 is akin to saying all Christians are like the nutty pastor in Florida who was threatening to to burn a pile of Qurans. He is no more representative of the vast majority of Christians than the 9/11 bombers were of the vast majority of Muslims.
    I have to agree with you. To me it seems insincere and somewhat racist. I know that is a strong word, but I just don't understand why innocent Muslims are being accused of being insensitive for wanting to build a community center, mosque, whatever in their own backyard just because it was marketed to a vast majority of media addicts as being a "ground Zero Victory Mosque". That isn't what it is, and we shouldn't fall for that. I too am embarrassed by how gullible we are and how easily we ask others to give up the values we profess as sacred to the rest of world. Frankly I find it hypocritical.

    I think we need to look at ourselves and wonder why we are so easily manipulated.

  7. #107
    twinks is offline INCIIDer - A Community Creator
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    Quote Originally Posted by SharonB View Post
    I'm having a hard time seeing any real difference between "suggesting" that they move their community center - and claiming that if they don't do it, they are insensitive - and actually telling them they *can't* do it. Both are essentially infringing on their right to practice their religion in this country.

    Holding the entire Muslim community responsible for what happened on 9/11 is akin to saying all Christians are like the nutty pastor in Florida who was threatening to to burn a pile of Qurans. He is no more representative of the vast majority of Christians than the 9/11 bombers were of the vast majority of Muslims.
    There is a huge difference between suggesting that a behavior is insensitive and actually telling someone they can't do something. It's a choice not to see the difference.

    Not once has anyone on this board suggest that they not be allowed to practice their religion.

  8. #108
    twinks is offline INCIIDer - A Community Creator
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    Quote Originally Posted by zody View Post
    I too am embarrassed by how gullible we are ... Frankly I find it hypocritical.

    I think we need to look at ourselves and wonder why we are so easily manipulated.
    I could not agree more - again for completely different reasons.

    And please stop referring to me/us as racists! The name calling is getting really old.

  9. #109
    twinks is offline INCIIDer - A Community Creator
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    Quote Originally Posted by jvirginia View Post
    It isn't our decision whether to "let them" build a mosque - that whole phrase gives away an attitude that America belongs to Christians who get to decide how much leeway to give people of other faiths in this country. "They" have a right to build the "mosque" - it is in our constitution, embedded in NY's zoning codes, the community has gone through the planning process, gotten the proper permits, followed due process, and now all of a sudden we are supposed to make an exception because of "sensitivity" based on a lie (the lie being that this is a victory mosque at ground zero).

    We fundamentally disagree on two points:

    1) That the location is really the issue. It isn't at Ground Zero now, you can't even see Ground Zero from there. Even keeping in mind the incredibly difficulty of "moving" such a project in NYC, I don't believe that moving it would allay the concerns of many opponents because what they are really opposed to is Islam in America.

    2) That this doesn't fan the flames of American hatred in the Muslim community. Yes, true committed terrorists have already lost their grip on reality, but whether public opinion around the world (remember there are 1 BILLION Muslims) *is* swayed by whether we live up to our great value or whether we

    One of my closest work colleagues is a Muslim (and an American citizen, a successful entrepreneur who has brought lots of money into the local economy) and I am utterly embarrassed about this whole thing on behalf of my country.
    Rights are an interesting thing. Yes, the muslims have the right to build their mosque. And the nutty pastor in FLA has a right to burn a book. Neither are the right thing to do but both have the constitutional right to do so.

    I don't at all disagree with you that the mosque issue fans the flames of hate. My point is that those flames of hate are already buring at a pretty steady pace and clearly nothing we do or do not do will put them out. You argue that our mosque debate is causing the flames - I argue that not debating the mosque will not deminish the flames. Frankly, we're both correct.

  10. #110
    zody is offline INCIIDer - A Community Creator
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    Default pictures of the planned building

    although the actual ground breaking looks to be at least 2 years away...

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/1...5.html#s149191

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